The voice of Lee Pace is a paradox. There’s a gentle, inquisitive tenor to almost everything he says, and yet, in that voice, you find yourself wanting to do exactly what he says. Like a siren call or hypnosis, you find yourself just wanting to write down many of his observations.
A conversation with Lee Pace feels less like quizzing an actor and more like a session with a philosopher or a life coach. Talking to him before the launch of the second season of Apple TV’s sci-fi epic, Foundation, Pace is rocking a guru-ish beard, in contrast with the chiseled, clean-shaven look he sports as “Brother Day.” In the show, “Brother Day” is one of a series of clones of an Emperor named Cleon. These clones—all essentially the same man with different experiences—have ruled over the Galactic Empire in something called “the genetic dynasty.” The reign of the Cleons is challenged in Foundation Season One, when a mathematician named Hari Seldon (Jared Harris) presents his theory called psychohistory, which predicts a coming dark age for the Empire, all of which could be shortened or lengthened, depending on the incumbent Emperor's actions. Close at Brother Day’s side is Demerzel (Laura Birn), a centuries-old robot and the true power behind the throne. Her identity as a robot is a secret to the rest of the world, and in Season Two, the extent of her power seems to eclipse that of Cleon’s.
In Foundation, all versions of Lee Pace’s Cleon are imposing and commanding. You can’t imagine him wearing a beard in the sci-fi universe he rules, but you can imagine taking orders from him in our world. Beard or no beard, being around Lee Pace makes you want to become a disciple of Lee Pace.
And yes, in case you were wondering, he is very tall. Known to millions as Thranduil from The Hobbit trilogy or Ronan the Accuser in the MCU, Pace’s reputation as an actor is perhaps, unfairly, connected to his stature. When discussing his height with Esquire, Pace quips, “I am more than just 6'5” you know?” It’s true, too, because although Pace is probably one of the fittest men on television right now, what makes him electrifying to watch is nearly imperceptible, and has little to do with how tall he is. Just as Cleon combines grace with intention, Pace conveys intelligence and thoughtfulness in all things. The key difference between himself and his performance is this: whereas Cleon is a kind of “meat puppet” (Pace’s words), the actor who plays him is very comfortable in his own skin. He’s happy to talk about science fiction novels, and the ambitious multi-century television series in which he plays an essential part. But you can also tell he’d be just as happy digging in his garden.
Esquire caught up with Lee Pace over Zoom before the launch of Foundation Season 2 to discuss how he crafted the latest mad clone emperor Cleon, his feelings about the fashion on the planet Trantor, and his predictions for the future of masculinity — a hundred years from now.
When the trailer for Foundation Season 2 dropped, I read that Out called you “Galactic Emperor Daddy.” Are you “Galactic Emperor Daddy?” How do you feel about that label?
How do I feel about it? [laughs]. I don’t know. It feels nice.I don't really know what to make of it. My emotions are unreliable, so I don’t know how I feel.
How do you muster this ruthless energy that Cleon has?
Well, it’s written that way! I suppose I get a chance to indulge in that side of myself. I think he’s a deformed creature. Clearly. He’s raised by a robot to take on this role, so he's primitive in a lot of ways. All the Cleons are primitive because they're conditioned to have this ego to believe that they are the Empire. Not like that they rule the Empire; they are the Empire. They're the human embodiment of the trillions of people and the many planets that make up this galactic empire. It's an absurd idea. But the creature that's doing it is this 25,000 year-old intelligent robot, quietly conditioning them, seeing them through their cycles of life, one after the next. I mean, she's assisting them, but she's also forming their minds, so there are many different layers.
But the version you’re playing this year is different…
Right. The Cleon I play this season, I find particularly interesting, because he’s embracing his individuality. He doesn't want to be one of the clones. He rejects the idea of that imperishable permanence. He believes it's a poison and he’s going to see an end to it. So he’s very intentionally writing his own destiny. I find that departure from the structure of those clones interesting.
I love this mesh thing you’re wearing later in Foundation Season 2. Are there any of these costumes that Lee Pace would wear?
I’m not wearing any of Cleon’s clothes. [laughs] I definitely work with the costume designer and [showrunner] David Goyer to figure that out. I remember as we were developing that specific costume you mentioned, the way we were thinking about that is that it's just very, very old. He's reaching back to before the clones, right? He’s claiming a history that’s before the genetic dynasty. That was interesting to me. I loved the idea of this, like fraying chain mail. That’s what he is.
There are a lot of Foundation books to read and re-read. I know you’re a sci-fi reader. And as you know, the original Cleon comes from the prequel novels that Asimov wrote late in his life: Prelude to Foundation and Forward the Foundation. Did you find yourself revising those books to research your performance?
I’m not the most methodical about my research! [laughs] I kind of move in whatever way that my curiosity takes me. Of course, I read those books and I got a lot from them. For some background work, I looked at the Incas and the Romans. But the riddle for me this season was his relationship with Demerzel, because she controls him, but he thinks of her as his property. As I said, he’s very primitive, so when he’s angry, he’s emotional and he hurts. He argues because he’s tough and durable. It works well for him through the generations. I think that masculine aggression has this incredible chaotic force. There’s no reason to that aggression. It’s the opposite of what Hari Seldon posits as the hope for mankind. There’s no mathematical hope behind that masculine aggression. I look at Trump. I look at Putin. I look at these powerfully unreasonable people who are just irresistible to millions of people. So, Cleon doesn't problem-solve. He sees the shot and he takes it. He's not a planner. He’s like a two strike hitter.
In the real world, where is masculine energy headed in the next a hundred years?
I think the myth we live with right now is that there's only one kind of masculinity. There are many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many kinds of masculinity. So those will always exist. And they're loud. They take up a lot of space. Cleon takes up a lot of space. That ego takes up a lot of space. But there are many different types of strength. There are many different types of unreasonable men. If I were to make a prediction, I’d say as we continue to develop as an increasingly complex society, our diversity and nuance inside that diversity will only multiply.
You’re very tall. You being 6’5” is something people talk about a lot. In an alternate universe, did you have a different tall-person vocation?
I do wonder sometimes how all this happened. How did I end up doing this absurd thing with my life—which I enjoy very much. I don't know if there was another option. I don't think there was, actually. I don't know if there's anything else I could have done. I mean, there's other things that I do in my life. You know, reach things on high shelves. I do a lot of work at the farm.
If I came to your farm right now, what would we be eating?
If it’s the right time of year, something from the garden. I’m in Europe now, so the garden is sadly neglected. Nothing but weeds. But I would hopefully prepare you something from the garden. I grill a lot. I can promise you that if you come to my farm or my home to eat, it will be good.
Ryan Britt is the author of Phasers on Stun! and the new book The Spice Must Flow: The Story of Dune, From Cult Novels to Visionary Sci-Fi Movies.
