Jessie Buckley And Charlie Kaufman Are Thinking Of Ending Things

Charlie Kaufman’s new film, I’m Thinking of Ending Things, is very funny and very strange. It’s about a student, played by Jessie Buckley, who for six weeks has been dating Jake, a frustrated intellectual played Jesse Plemons. Now they’re taking a long, uncomfortable, snowy road-trip together so she can meet his parents for the first time. She doesn’t know why she agreed to go or why she started dating Jake in the first place. She’s thinking of ending things. At the family farm she meets Jake’s mother (Toni Collette) and father (a delightfully awful David Thewlis) and they settle down for dinner. As their hosts’ appearance starts to change, so do clothes, furniture and anecdotes. What might be in the basement? Why can’t the family dog stop shaking? Is anything what it seems?

Buckley’s character is introduced as a physics student, then later she’s referred to as a painter, then a poet. And is her name Lucy, or Louise? (It’s ‘The Young Woman’ in the credits).

The majority of the film is a two-hander with Plemons and Buckley. Most of the action takes place in a car, in a snowstorm, where the dialogue and pace resembles a play. All the actors are excellent. But it’s Buckley, already on a vertiginous trajectory after the 2017 thriller Beast, and 2019 awards-magnet Chernobyl, who steals the show. The Irish actor is presumably the only person ever to take Hollywood by storm after starting their career on a BBC talent show in which Graham Norton and Andrew Lloyd Weber attempted to find a new Nancy for Oliver! (She came second.)

Kaufman based the film on the 2016 Canadian novel of the same name and you can see why the story appealed to him. I’m Thinking of Ending Things joins his brainy resumé of absurdist masterpieces: Being John Malkovich, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and Synecdoche, New York.

Buckley and Kaufman recently spoke with Esquire about their new film. She was in Chicago, where she was finishing up the next season of Fargo. He was at home in New York. They joined the Zoom call wearing red clown’s noses.

Coat, knit and trousers, all by Ami; Hat by Simone Rocha

Esquire: How did you end up working together?

Kaufman: I had cast somebody for this movie [Brie Larson] and I was looking for somebody to replace her. I called my production designer, Molly Hughes, who happened to be in London at the time at the house of the director she was working with, Thea Sharrock. Molly asked her while we were on the phone and she said: "You have to cast Jessie Buckley". And I didn’t know who that was – hard to believe – but I didn’t. But I was really excited by the notion of somebody I didn’t know. That really appealed to me. So, I watched the movie Beast, which is just extraordinary – Jessie’s performance is extraordinary. I was looking at a couple of other people and we sent the poem [Buckley’s character is encouraged to recite a lengthy poem in the film] around and asked people to record themselves. And Jessie sent hers back, I think, the next day – was it the next day? It was really soon. And it was so good. It was so intimate. And it was memorised, which blew my mind because it’s a long poem. So I asked her if she wanted to do the movie.

Buckley: I probably watched Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind when I was at college. And I remember going to see Anomalisa and realising that Charlie was pretty brilliant. That was my meeting of him… in my mind. And I didn’t expect it to go anywhere beyond that. And then I flew home [from America to Ireland] for Christmas about three years ago and my agent sent through the script. And then the Charlie in my mind became the Charlie on the piece of paper in front of me. And then I sent in the audition tape. But with those things, it’s kind of a shot in the dark.

Kaufman: It’s funny, you know, because I was really worried that you weren’t going to do it.

Buckley: What?

Kaufman: Yeah. Because you were the person I wanted for the role. I couldn’t really see anybody else in it after watching you do the tape and also after watching Beast. Because there’s so much transformation in that character in Beast. We talked about this early on: this idea of the young woman in this movie switching really fast from one thing to another because she’s constantly being projected onto, and I saw that you were the person to do that. So, it’s funny to hear that you wanted to do it. I didn’t know you wanted to do it.

Buckley: Oh my God, completely. I wanted to do it so bad!

Kaufman: Your ability to be in the moment, which I discovered working with you, is really extraordinary. The way you go with whatever is happening in the room, with the other actors, it’s really what I’m looking for in anybody who’s performing.

Coat, shorts and shoes, all by Loewe

Buckley: But you’re like that. You write like that.

Kaufman: I try to. That’s one of the reasons I try not to anticipate where the script is going or try to figure out what the ending is because I [want the process to be] "Oh, I wrote this line. What could that mean?" It’s akin [to Buckley’s acting] but [for her] to do it in real time, with all the pressures of being in front of a crew and working with actors and all of that – it’s just really, really impressive to me.

Buckley: Can I ask – ‘cos I’ve been thinking about it – Jesse [Plemons] was cast, and our names are the same…

Kaufman: I read something online recently where somebody said: "Look he cast these people with the same name. That’s no accident! That’s something Charlie Kaufman would do." And it isn’t! And, in fact, I don’t think I even really thought about it in that context until that person said that. Which is bizarre. Because it’s so obvious.

Esquire: What’s it like to get a Charlie Kaufman script, Jessie?

Buckley: Yeah, you don’t get those [too often]. You don’t get challenged like that very often. And when they come, it’s like being electrocuted. In the best way. Not… to death. It’s so exciting. You feel like you can think completely differently. It’s what you want, really. But it’s very, very, very, very rare. Its happened maybe twice to me.

Esquire: So much of this movie takes place in a car – a small car. What was that like to film?

Kaufman: How many days was it? Was it five days, four days? I can’t remember.

Buckley: Six?

Kaufman: And they [Buckley and Plemons] were locked in the car. I mean, they weren’t literally locked in the car. They could get out between takes while we were adjusting stuff. But there wasn’t really a lot of time. So they mostly sat in there. And I think you guys probably went a little stir crazy.

Buckley: I kind of enjoyed being in there.

Kaufman: [incredulous] Really?

Buckley: I felt safe in there, and I wanted to get into that. I didn’t feel sick or claustrophobic. And luckily I love Jesse with all my heart. I didn’t mind it. But there was definitely some laughter, crying and shouting that came out.

Kaufman: Now that you say that, I would come into the back seat to talk to you guys and I felt a little uncomfortable. Like I was intruding. Like, I wasn’t sure if I was allowed back there. So maybe I had a sense that you guys had formed a community and I wanted to be respectful of it.

Buckley: Oh no, we loved you coming in.

Esquire: As with Beast, you’re on screen for almost the entire movie. What challenges does that bring?

Buckley: It’s great! Maybe other people find it troubling…

Kaufman: Who cares about other people?

Buckley: It’s fun to be able to go through something from beginning to end and not have to stop and start. It was great. And we pretty much shot in order.

Kaufman: Yeah, we did the stuff in the car in its entirety. So they’re very long takes. And a lot of dialogue for Jessie and Jesse to remember. It’s like they’re in a play.

Esquire: There’s loads of offbeat scenes in the film. Is there one that stands out to you?

Buckley: Something that moves me a lot, and I just don’t even know how he did it, I think David Thewlis, when he’s up in Jake’s bedroom, is just extraordinary. Whatever he did – I don’t even know what he did. Like, that is a real person in front of me. I feel like I’ve met that man somewhere. But it wasn’t David.

Kaufman: Even beyond the prosthetic makeup, there’s something he’s doing with his body that makes him look so frail. And David’s not a frail person. I can’t figure it out either. Obviously, it’s something in the way he’s holding his body, and it’s helped by Merissa’s [production designer Merissa Lombardo] wardrobe. We were in and out of that room in 10 minutes because there was nothing more to be done [to improve the scene]. And I think David said something like, "It’s the one straightforward scene in the movie". Like, it’s conventionally structured, as opposed to the [other] stuff that’s going on in the farm, and in the sitting room.

Esquire: What’s I’m Thinking of Ending Things actually about?

Kaufman: It’s about two hours and seven minutes.

Buckley: It’s about a guy called Jake and his girlfriend going to visit his parents’ in their cottage in the countryside. Something along those lines.

Kaufman: She’s thinking of ending their relationship. And this is maybe a little bit of a last-ditch effort to see what she can learn about him and whether or not she wants to proceed. And they get stuck in a snowstorm on the way there. And then they head home.

Esquire: There’s a musical theatre riff in the film. That ties nicely with Jessie’s CV.

Kaufman: Yeah, I wish that we had an opportunity for Jessie to sing in this.

Buckley: Oh no.

Kaufman: I mean, she sings the Tulsey Town jingle [ice cream parlour visited by The Young Woman and Jake, with its own TV jingle].

Buckley: That’s enough for me.

Esquire: What did you learn about each other making this film?

Kaufman: I learned that Jessie is nothing like the character she plays in Beast –

Buckley: Thank God.

Kaufman: – and that made me all the more impressed with her.

Buckley: I learned that Charlie is incredibly good at scooters.

Kaufman: That’s what I would do for relaxation between takes. I would ride around on scooters. I think scooters are cool.

Esquire: What are you up to next?

Buckley: I’m in Chicago at the moment, just finishing Fargo [the fourth season, featuring two warring crime syndicates, set in the Fifties]. And then I’m going to be shooting a film called The Lost Daughter that Maggie Gyllenhaal is directing, adapted from an Elena Ferrante novel.

Kaufman: I’m developing a limited series for HBO about a viral epidemic that causes stupidity. And I’m writing a screenplay for Ryan Gosling’s company about dreams.

Esquire: What do people get wrong about what you do?

Buckley: People think it’s some weird veneer, like the [celebrity] circus around it. The people who inspire me have had absolutely nothing to do with that circus. It’s absolutely the last thing to do with anything in this job, or this work. It’s the end of the road. The beginning of it is the exploring of how you can open up your body to humanity and explore what that means to its fullest sense. And people’s idea that you become this glamorous person is weird. It’s the opposite of what made me fall in love with it... That made no sense.

Kaufman: I think it made sense. The thing that is so important about it is being present which is a very difficult thing to do because of the circumstance of it. Allowing yourself to be moved in whatever direction you’re moved and the process of interacting with other people in the scene. And there’s a lot of technical stuff that goes on that you have to be mindful of. And there’s a lot of people around, who it’s difficult to be vulnerable in front of. And when it’s good it’s because you are able to tap into the thing that Jessie was talking about, in the face of all that stuff. In the face of a lens in your face and lights and crew and people who aren’t giving their full attention. It’s a very difficult job, I think.

Esquire: Plenty in this movie is left open to interpretation. Is there a version in your head you’re satisfied with?

Buckley: I’ve had different experiences every time its come into my life, from the moment I read it to the 50^th time I read it. It was constantly transcending into something that I didn’t expect. Even when I watch it now, it keeps asking me questions. Which I think is like the magic of it.

Kaufman: I’m very happy with that response.

I’m Thinking of Ending Things is on Netflix from 4 September

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